Cars being booted at ATCO

[Marc W]

Didn't they tech the cars before letting them run? Seems odd not to set boundaries and limitations in advance.

Yes they do. Hell..... the tracks I go to, do that at a Friday nite test and tune. The car is either certed for 8.5 seconds or it’s a 10.0. They normally mark that on the front and rear window and if you go under your number.... you answer for it. They can warn you to not do it again or just line out or wipe off your number when you pick up your time slip and you’re done. As far as the promotion of events like this.... it should be stated that the track will either enforce or ignore the NHRA rulebook. It should be on the promotor to know that and make sure it’s clear in advance. It’s either one or the other. What’s not right is a track making up their own rules and participants finding out after they get there what’s being enforced and what’s not. This situation is a result of those tracks out there ignoring the rulebook for individuals and then when a big organized event happens and a bunch of “too fast” cars show up, they start thinking liability. You’ve got Dodge promoting 9 second Demons outside of the rulebook. They even used being banned as a promotional joke. The Legion organizes its events where everybody runs 9’s and there’s not a rulebook in sight. That’s broadcast live on line. You’ve got people all over the forums here and on FB running 9’s like it’s a walk in the park. I already said that I think it’s time for the NHRA to change the rules and make some more allowances for the modern day cars. No it’s not safe. Neither is driving a Funny Car or a Pro Mod. The drivers make that decision based on experience and driver skill and waivers are signed. They have to have earned a Competition Drivers License to prove they know what they’re doing before they’re allowed to do it. I said earlier that with some increased safety and liability concerns addressed (I’m not going to repeat that but the Competition License being one of them) the new cars should be allowed to run in the nines without the cage necessary to protect a 1960’s Mustang. One of the stated goals of the NHRA is promoting safety by providing a venue for street racers to take it to the track instead. I don’t know if they are aware that there’s a bunch of 9 second street cars “going to Mexico” out there. This isn’t going to go away. It’s only going to get worse as it becomes more affordable to buy and build these things. The NHRA needs go back to the drawing board and talk about reality.

 

[motorhead]

The NHRA needs go back to the drawing board and talk about reality.

I fully agree with you. But, addressing the need costs money and requires resources (time, personnel, training, etc) - is the NHRA capable of undertaking that initiative?

https://www.owler.com/company/thenationalhotrodassociation

Says the company makes about $100M per year in revenue; the top drivers make a killing too. So is it profitable to worry about the part of the sport that generates the least amount of revenue (novice sportsman type racing)?

NHRA safety standards all seems so arbitrary. Sort of like a PMP certification where it provides no real proof of competence or assurances in the individual other than being "certified".

 

[Markp]

Half the ricer cars I see that have cages and certification have bumpers barely hanging on with zip ties. Every time I am at the track a part of a ricer car falls off. That is dangerous as now you are affecting other people. The cars should be checked to make sure they are safe to go down the track. Safety of the driver in there car is up to the driver. Everything else is use at your own risk. At least that is the way it should be.

 

[Marc W]

I fully agree with you. But, addressing the need costs money and requires resources (time, personnel, training, etc) - is the NHRA capable of undertaking that initiative?

https://www.owler.com/company/thenationalhotrodassociation

Says the company makes about $100M per year in revenue; the top drivers make a killing too. So is it profitable to worry about the part of the sport that generates the least amount of revenue (novice sportsman type racing)?

NHRA safety standards all seems so arbitrary. Sort of like a PMP certification where it provides no real proof of competence or assurances in the individual other than being "certified".

Yeah I know how big a pain dealing with the NHRA can be. I’ve gone thru the WHOLE enchilada with the 8.50 cert and licensing to be allowed to run a 9.99. Tracks (Pomona comes to mind) have personal who are only interested in the big pro event actors and show no respect for the “amateurs” in stuff like MSHS. The tracks that don’t have the big NHRA events are more often user friendly and that’s probably where the bending of the rules got started. I’m thinking that now some of those tracks have created a monster and are seeing the consequences. When I say the NHRA needs to change their rules pertaining to the new breed of 9 second street cars.... I don’t mean they should just lower the numbers. I think a license should be required. If a driver can’t take the time and effort to go through that then..... tuff. I just don’t think a expensive cage needs to be a part of it in these cars. Older cars.... yes. They don’t have the designed safety attributes that the new cars have. Also.... I’m not saying that these cars are safe to roll at any speed. I’m saying that if a driver is educated and experienced to a reasonable level (Competition license) then he should be allowed to assume the risk. The nanny culture we deal with today gets into everything. Even auto racing for cripes sake!

 

[Markp]

Yeah I know how big a pain dealing with the NHRA can be. I’ve gone thru the WHOLE enchilada with the 8.50 cert and licensing to be allowed to run a 9.99. Tracks (Pomona comes to mind) have personal who are only interested in the big pro event actors and show no respect for the “amateurs” in stuff like MSHS. The tracks that don’t have the big NHRA events are more often user friendly and that’s probably where the bending of the rules got started. I’m thinking that now some of those tracks have created a monster and are seeing the consequences. When I say the NHRA needs to change their rules pertaining to the new breed of 9 second street cars.... I don’t mean they should just lower the numbers. I think a license should be required. If a driver can’t take the time and effort to go through that then..... tuff. I just don’t think a expensive cage needs to be a part of it in these cars. Older cars.... yes. They don’t have the designed safety attributes that the new cars have. Also.... I’m not saying that these cars are safe to roll at any speed. I’m saying that if a driver is educated and experienced to a reasonable level (Competition license) then he should be allowed to assume the risk. The nanny culture we deal with today gets into everything. Even auto racing for cripes sake!

I agree. This all started with people not wanting to take responsibility for there own actions. Someone crashes there car at the track either dies or becomes paralyzed and they sue the track for letting them run or there family sues for letting them run without the safety equipment.

 

[motorhead]

Yeah I know how big a pain dealing with the NHRA can be. I’ve gone thru the WHOLE enchilada with the 8.50 cert and licensing to be allowed to run a 9.99. Tracks (Pomona comes to mind) have personal who are only interested in the big pro event actors and show no respect for the “amateurs” in stuff like MSHS. The tracks that don’t have the big NHRA events are more often user friendly and that’s probably where the bending of the rules got started. I’m thinking that now some of those tracks have created a monster and are seeing the consequences. When I say the NHRA needs to change their rules pertaining to the new breed of 9 second street cars.... I don’t mean they should just lower the numbers. I think a license should be required. If a driver can’t take the time and effort to go through that then..... tuff. I just don’t think a expensive cage needs to be a part of it in these cars. Older cars.... yes. They don’t have the designed safety attributes that the new cars have. Also.... I’m not saying that these cars are safe to roll at any speed. I’m saying that if a driver is educated and experienced to a reasonable level (Competition license) then he should be allowed to assume the risk. The nanny culture we deal with today gets into everything. Even auto racing for cripes sake!

I am in the process of building a beer can with a late-model engine that had twice as much power than was originally in the car back in 1987 and THEN doubled (tripled ?) that engine's output with the turbocharger I hung on it. Does anyone here honestly think I want to cage it? No. But, what should I expect when I take it to the track and go quicker than 11.49? I should expect to be sent home - still driving home in an unsafe beer can missile surrounded by SUVs and SMART cars.

Yes, I will be installing the appropriate safety gear - as time and money allow. There is that rule bending issue again; and yet installing a certified cage doesn't meet the MTO's safety standards.

F it - I am just driving my Hellcat.

 

[Hpindy]

Yeah I know how big a pain dealing with the NHRA can be. I’ve gone thru the WHOLE enchilada with the 8.50 cert and licensing to be allowed to run a 9.99. Tracks (Pomona comes to mind) have personal who are only interested in the big pro event actors and show no respect for the “amateurs” in stuff like MSHS. The tracks that don’t have the big NHRA events are more often user friendly and that’s probably where the bending of the rules got started. I’m thinking that now some of those tracks have created a monster and are seeing the consequences. When I say the NHRA needs to change their rules pertaining to the new breed of 9 second street cars.... I don’t mean they should just lower the numbers. I think a license should be required. If a driver can’t take the time and effort to go through that then..... tuff. I just don’t think a expensive cage needs to be a part of it in these cars. Older cars.... yes. They don’t have the designed safety attributes that the new cars have. Also.... I’m not saying that these cars are safe to roll at any speed. I’m saying that if a driver is educated and experienced to a reasonable level (Competition license) then he should be allowed to assume the risk. The nanny culture we deal with today gets into everything. Even auto racing for cripes sake!

I'd go for a compilation licence, Im getting the fire pants and jacket over the winter . I'd only put the harness bar in the future if required .

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[PaVaSteeler]

Racers were warned and had the opportunity to slow down and stay.

I think the NHRA rules are to reactive and don't properly account for all the proactive safety built into newer cars that can prevent a barrel roll from occurring to begin with. They seem to lack an open-minded appraisal of current automotive technology.

Didn't they tech the cars before letting them run? Seems odd not to set boundaries and limitations in advance.

As long as the car beside me is safe to go down the track I don't care if he is driving butt naked without a helmet. That is there choice if they wreck and die well they wreck and die.

The problem as I see it with the arguments using the "...proactive safety built into newer cars", "...didn't they tech the cars...", and "...that is there (sic) choice..." logic is that many of the "new proactive safety built into newer cars..." can be either easily negated in the cabin (pushing traction control fully off) or tuned out (no visible proof it works).

Thus, the argument "...that is their choice" creates a situation not unlike street racing, whereby the innocent "other party" is unknowingly put at risk by those that make "their choice".

I used to run my M6 Scat with traction control fully off; I could do this either by the provided button, or through my tuner. I "justified" this with the argument I needed to to safely (for my transmission) and properly do burnouts.

After reading some of the comments by more experienced racers here, and experiencing first hand the increased speed and power of my 1320, I stopped turning my traction control off. I made the assumption that in Drag Mode, Dodge programmed it to recognize burnouts and make allowances to accommodate them. I was "swayed" by the comments I read that I owed it to the safety of not just myself but fellow racers to keep the traction control on to incorporate the "sway" prevention programming.

My point being, acknowledgement of the Catch-22 situation inherent in using the argument that the NHRA needs to recognize the newer safety technologies in these cars; if they recognize them, but don't do something to counter the owners' ability to circumvent some/most/all of that technology, how can they truly write safety rules without seemingly overburdensome thresholds?

 

[Marc W]

I'd go for a compilation licence, Im getting the fire pants and jacket over the winter . I'd only put the harness bar in the future if required .

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The competition license isn’t easy to get. Primarily because you have to have a 8.50 certified car and all the required safety equipment to get it. The easiest and most fun way to do it is through one of the “schools” that have classes around the country. They’re not cheap... costing around $2,500 to attend, but you will learn a lot and driving their Super Gas type cars without any concern for anything breaking is a ton of fun. Especially if you haven’t gone that fast before! Most people going to the track don’t know what they don’t know. Everything from water box and staging etiquette to proper burn out and getting off the track at the end of a run against another car. It’s just amazing how few people out there even know what to do if their car breaks on the track. I got my first competition license back in the 80’s when Terry Vance and Byron Hines signed me off for Pro Stock Motorcycle. Making 8 second passes..... under control to their satisfaction lol. Years later after retiring from that I got my S/G license from The Frank Hawley School of Drag Racing. I had a Renegade class Mustang for the NMRA and I went to the school because the Mustang was not reliable enough to make the required number of passes without a problem of one kind or another. That license was signed by my instructor..... Jack Beckmann. That license had expired and needed to be renewed for the current ride and this time I used the Hellcat to get it at a track rental in Fontana, Calif. If one can afford to do it.... it’s a great adventure. Running 9.0 at 150 mph in a big tire/full chassis drag car off a trans brake is a kick in the ass if you haven’t experienced anything like that before. It still is even if you have. 😝

 

[Speedy!]

Most of you know I'm the ChallengerFest event owner and organizer and I've dealt with this very issue over the past few years since 9 second Hellcats are almost the norm. I tell ANYONE that phones, emails, texts, Instagram, FB message, and it's in our official event rules that your car must have proper NHRA safety equipment to run the times it runs. Period. That way there is no question. I don't make the rules nor enforce them, that's on the track as that's what I pay them for. The track has never questioned anything, but I don't want to be put in the middle of a debate or have someone drive across the country and get pissed. Seems simple enough to me to just make it clear up front. Then if you show up and things are lax, have at it if that's your prerogative.

Also, I've never seen a track immediately boot someone. A warning is typically given first to slow down. You can still race, just change the tune, let off early, whatever. It shouldn't be that big of a deal, that is unless you waited all year for November weather at Atco to set a new PB and drove across the country to do it which sounds like the case here. If you chose to ignore the warning, BYE. I have zero problems with that.

That's my .02 cents no change for your 5.

 

[Hpindy]

The competition license isn’t easy to get. Primarily because you have to have a 8.50 certified car and all the required safety equipment to get it. The easiest and most fun way to do it is through one of the “schools” that have classes around the country. They’re not cheap... costing around $2,500 to attend, but you will learn a lot and driving their Super Gas type cars without any concern for anything breaking is a ton of fun. Especially if you haven’t gone that fast before! Most people going to the track don’t know what they don’t know. Everything from water box and staging etiquette to proper burn out and getting off the track at the end of a run against another car. It’s just amazing how few people out there even know what to do if their car breaks on the track. I got my first competition license back in the 80’s when Terry Vance and Byron Hines signed me off for Pro Stock Motorcycle. Making 8 second passes..... under control to their satisfaction lol. Years later after retiring from that I got my S/G license from The Frank Hawley School of Drag Racing. I had a Renegade class Mustang for the NMRA and I went to the school because the Mustang was not reliable enough to make the required number of passes without a problem of one kind or another. That license was signed by my instructor..... Jack Beckmann. That license had expired and needed to be renewed for the current ride and this time I used the Hellcat to get it at a track rental in Fontana, Calif. If one can afford to do it.... it’s a great adventure. Running 9.0 at 150 mph in a big tire/full chassis drag car off a trans brake is a kick in the ass if you haven’t experienced anything like that before. It still is even if you have.

I should have clarified I would get the licence if they changed the rules to something like you suggested . I wont bother with the licence with the current rules as I have no desire to put a cage/bar in my car .

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[Hpindy]

Most of you know I'm the ChallengerFest event owner and organizer and I've dealt with this very issue over the past few years since 9 second Hellcats are almost the norm. I tell ANYONE that phones, emails, texts, Instagram, FB message, and it's in our official event rules that your car must have proper NHRA safety equipment to run the times it runs. Period. That way there is no question. I don't make the rules nor enforce them, that's on the track as that's what I pay them for. The track has never questioned anything, but I don't want to be put in the middle of a debate or have someone drive across the country and get pissed. Seems simple enough to me to just make it clear up front. Then if you show up and things are lax, have at it if that's your prerogative.

Also, I've never seen a track immediately boot someone. A warning is typically given first to slow down. You can still race, just change the tune, let off early, whatever. It shouldn't be that big of a deal, that is unless you waited all year for November weather at Atco to set a new PB and drove across the country to do it which sounds like the case here. If you chose to ignore the warning, BYE. I have zero problems with that.

That's my .02 cents no change for your 5.

That's exactly what I'm going to do . I'm going to make a "10.0@135 " tune for my car . Just be on the same side .

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[Marc W]

Most of you know I'm the ChallengerFest event owner and organizer and I've dealt with this very issue over the past few years since 9 second Hellcats are almost the norm. I tell ANYONE that phones, emails, texts, Instagram, FB message, and it's in our official event rules that your car must have proper NHRA safety equipment to run the times it runs. Period. That way there is no question. I don't make the rules nor enforce them, that's on the track as that's what I pay them for. The track has never questioned anything, but I don't want to be put in the middle of a debate or have someone drive across the country and get pissed. Seems simple enough to me to just make it clear up front. Then if you show up and things are lax, have at it if that's your prerogative.

Also, I've never seen a track immediately boot someone. A warning is typically given first to slow down. You can still race, just change the tune, let off early, whatever. It shouldn't be that big of a deal, that is unless you waited all year for November weather at Atco to set a new PB and drove across the country to do it which sounds like the case here. If you chose to ignore the warning, BYE. I have zero problems with that.

That's my .02 cents no change for your 5.

Haha. I saw somebody not only get booted off the track after one run... he was told to get off the grounds and was banned for life. And that was after he did exactly what they told him to do. 😂. I think that officials name was Dick.

 

[Hpindy]

Haha. I saw somebody not only get booted off the track after one run... he was told to get off the grounds and was banned for life. And that was after he did exactly what they told him to do. . I think that officials name was Dick.

That's a bit extreme . Some had a superiority complex for sure . No not barking at the rules just how they are enforced .

I don't race in "Mexico" and I have a 10.0 car

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[Speedy!]

I'd agree there. I can't imagine my local track treating someone like that, unless their name was Dick to start with, know what I mean LOL

 

[DRAGRCR]

Most of you know I'm the ChallengerFest event owner and organizer and I've dealt with this very issue over the past few years since 9 second Hellcats are almost the norm. I tell ANYONE that phones, emails, texts, Instagram, FB message, and it's in our official event rules that your car must have proper NHRA safety equipment to run the times it runs. Period. That way there is no question. I don't make the rules nor enforce them, that's on the track as that's what I pay them for. The track has never questioned anything, but I don't want to be put in the middle of a debate or have someone drive across the country and get pissed. Seems simple enough to me to just make it clear up front. Then if you show up and things are lax, have at it if that's your prerogative.

Also, I've never seen a track immediately boot someone. A warning is typically given first to slow down. You can still race, just change the tune, let off early, whatever. It shouldn't be that big of a deal, that is unless you waited all year for November weather at Atco to set a new PB and drove across the country to do it which sounds like the case here. If you chose to ignore the warning, BYE. I have zero problems with that.

That's my .02 cents no change for your 5.

The only time I got jacked was in St Louis. They made the demon heads up race a 10.00 index race with a breakout. But they did not tell the racers. Maybe because no one had made it into the 9's up to that point. Not sure why. Then when I put up a 9.997 in the first round they gave me the loss. That was especially hard to deal with since I had my opponent covered by 3 car lengths. Information is the key. When I complained to the organizer they dug in and sided with the track personel. In this case I got no warning to slow down whatsoever.

 

[Phast Hemi]

The problem as I see it with the arguments using the "...proactive safety built into newer cars", "...didn't they tech the cars...", and "...that is there (sic) choice..." logic is that many of the "new proactive safety built into newer cars..." can be either easily negated in the cabin (pushing traction control fully off) or tuned out (no visible proof it works).

Thus, the argument "...that is their choice" creates a situation not unlike street racing, whereby the innocent "other party" is unknowingly put at risk by those that make "their choice".

I used to run my M6 Scat with traction control fully off; I could do this either by the provided button, or through my tuner. I "justified" this with the argument I needed to to safely (for my transmission) and properly do burnouts.

After reading some of the comments by more experienced racers here, and experiencing first hand the increased speed and power of my 1320, I stopped turning my traction control off. I made the assumption that in Drag Mode, Dodge programmed it to recognize burnouts and make allowances to accommodate them. I was "swayed" by the comments I read that I owed it to the safety of not just myself but fellow racers to keep the traction control on to incorporate the "sway" prevention programming.

My point being, acknowledgement of the Catch-22 situation inherent in using the argument that the NHRA needs to recognize the newer safety technologies in these cars; if they recognize them, but don't do something to counter the owners' ability to circumvent some/most/all of that technology, how can they truly write safety rules without seemingly overburdensome thresholds?

This is an interesting argument. Looking at the current NHRA rules,the existing language already prohibits altering any factory installed safety device/ equipment/ feature. Anyone who guts their car to remove a seat with air bag, disables factory traction control, alters a factory anti-lock brake system, etc... is not NHRA compliant above 10.0. I see folks removing factory crash supports behind bumper covers and replacing them with light versions that offer no safety. Not many ever bring this aspect up and it has been going on for a while in cars that run 10s. All these cars are also illegal. Yet lots of folks do it, in many cases , with encouragement from the righteous cage safety preachers. Sometimes its hard to weed through the hypocrisy and get to which safety features really matter. I like to retain as many factory safety features as I can for both daily and racing use.


.

 

[Marc W]

I'd agree there. I can't imagine my local track treating someone like that, unless their name was Dick to start with, know what I mean LOL

Haha. You had to be there. It was at Pomona last year at the big Mopar Spring Fest event. HUGE event! The MSHS race was going to be included on the Pomona track for the first time and it was advertised both by MSHS and Spring Fest. So cars from around the country showed. This didn’t involve a not properly certed car. It was the Epling Garage Challenger. He is certed for at least 7.50. The Pomona track officials decided that the advertised event wasn’t going to be allowed to run because they didn’t allot the personnel to manage it. So...... they called the whole thing off the night before. Most didn’t find out there wasn’t going to be any track prep or competition until that morning at the track. Epling and Tim Barth showed up from Tennessee and Chicago, along with the Demon Performance Jeep and others and as you can imagine... weren’t happy. I towed in from Utah so I was only a thousand bucks or so out of pocket. The Epling crew was given permission to go down the track under Dicks conditions. If I remember... they had to remove the chute. I guess that was to keep them from going too fast by reducing their stopping capabilities? Wtf? Anyway... they agreed to shut it down at the 1/8 mile and at least they would get some data. Remember... this is a fully certed car that was legal to go down the track. Short story is.... he carried the front wheels about 200 ft and clicked it off at half track, coasting thru in something like 8.5 seconds at 120 mph. Dick went ballistic 🤯 and things got nasty. I have no idea what Spring Fest is going to do this year but I know somebody who won’t be back. And... they owe me $1000.

 

[Speedy!]

Yeah I remember that deal. It's California, so there's that.

 

[Markp]

Haha. You had to be there. It was at Pomona last year at the big Mopar Spring Fest event. HUGE event! The MSHS race was going to be included on the Pomona track for the first time and it was advertised both by MSHS and Spring Fest. So cars from around the country showed. This didn’t involve a not properly certed car. It was the Epling Garage Challenger. He is certed for at least 7.50. The Pomona track officials decided that the advertised event wasn’t going to be allowed to run because they didn’t allot the personnel to manage it. So...... they called the whole thing off the night before. Most didn’t find out there wasn’t going to be any track prep or competition until that morning at the track. Epling and Tim Barth showed up from Tennessee and Chicago, along with the Demon Performance Jeep and others and as you can imagine... weren’t happy. I towed in from Utah so I was only a thousand bucks or so out of pocket. The Epling crew was given permission to go down the track under Dicks conditions. If I remember... they had to remove the chute. I guess that was to keep them from going too fast by reducing their stopping capabilities? Wtf? Anyway... they agreed to shut it down at the 1/8 mile and at least they would get some data. Remember... this is a fully certed car that was legal to go down the track. Short story is.... he carried the front wheels about 200 ft and clicked it off at half track, coasting thru in something like 8.5 seconds at 120 mph. Dick went ballistic 🤯 and things got nasty. I have no idea what Spring Fest is going to do this year but I know somebody who won’t be back. And... they owe me $1000.

Hpindy was set to go and paid for ATCO. I was seriously thinking of coming with him. I know he is probably happy he broke his driveshaft because if we drove all they way from Canada and he wasn’t allowed to run or got booted we might have ended up in U.S prison.