Manual Transmissions Are The Best!

[MaxCarnage]

https://www.dodge.com/assets/pdf/brochure/2016challenger.pdf

The most powerful and fastest muscle car. Ever.[2]The statement is bold and the numbers behind it robust enough to support it: 707 horsepower, 650 lb-ft of torque, a bewildering quarter-mile time* of 10.8 seconds and a top speed of 199 mph.

https://www.mideast.dodge.com/en/2019/challenger/srt.html

The Challenger SRT® Hellcat rules supreme with a quarter-mile time of 11.2 seconds( Disclosure1) and a top speed of 1.1 L/100Km

https://blog.dodge.com/vehicles/challenger-srt-hellcat-widebody/index.html

On the track, the 2018 Dodge Challenger SRT Hellcat Widebody boasts a top speed of 195 mph, and 0-60 mph acceleration improved by .1 second (3.4 in Widebody vs. 3.5 in standard Hellcat). Even more, the ¼-mile elapsed time (ET) improved by approximately .3 sec (10.9 ET in Widebody vs. 11.2 ET in standard Hellcat), while the road course lap time on a 1.7-mile track lowered by approximately 2 seconds per lap. Lateral skid pad grip increased by .04 g (.97 g in Widebody vs. .93 g in standard Hellcat).

The publications have some pretty broad discrepencies between the actual performance potential of the Challenger HC, eh? So should we just assume that it is the M6 that punches out the 10.80, since a large quantity of M6 HCs were produced between 2015 and 2016 and were very popular, as the brochure suggests? Or can we all be reasonable and assume the "standard" *cough*manual*cough* HC in 2019 runs an 11.2 and the widebooty is A8 equipped and runs 10.9s?

I did say not to compare spec sheets, but you asked, so there you go. More speculation.

They mean standard Hellcat as in normal body, not standard as in manual transmission. The broad discrepancies you are talking about have a lot to do with the fact that these tests are being done on factory tires. Plus we don't know DA, or driver skill. Racing these cars on factory tires alone is a big challenge. The reason the standard hellcat (standard body aka NB) runs an 11.2 vs the 10.9 of the widebody is simply tires.They have the same power, one just has wider factory tires that enable it to launch better as well as go faster around a road course.

You'll be hard pressed to find much info on M6 times mostly because Dodge likes to hand over their A8s for testing. Why? Because they know they are the quickest, and they want their product to look strong so it sells well.

The M6 stock doesn't punch out a 10.8. Fastest stock M6 I've ever heard of has ran an 11.1 on tire compared to the fastest A8 on tire which runs 10.3 (IIRC). Pretty sure @moparjim holds the record for the A8. So even if Jim is eating a sandwich at the light, he will still likely blow the doors off a M6 9 times out of 10. Hell keep lining them up over and over and watch as the M6 likely gets even slower because the M6 driver skips leg day, hahaha!

 

[MaxCarnage]

I don't even know why this topic is even debatable. Not much to debate.

A8 is the mechanically stronger, better geared, and quicker transmission that holds more power with mods vs the A8. The M6 will destroy the factory clutch on stock power with just some drag radial launches. The only legitimate argument is the "fun factor" which is subjective. Otherwise A8 reigns supreme. If you're an M6 racer and you're hoping for the luck draw of lining up to a crappy auto driver, good luck with that. Racing a manual especially in things like bracket racing is like fighting with one arm tied behind your back. Can you do it? Sure, but why put yourself at a disadvantage?

My argument for the fun factor is that fun for me is winning, lol. Plus as I've said before it's not that I don't like manuals (I do). I just especially don't like this one that Dodge chose to put in the Hellcat. With bad gearing, notchy shifting, a CDV to help novice drivers (lol), and a clutch that can't even hold factory power. M6 drivers can talk crap about us A8 guys not having any talent, but where's your talent when you lose over and over? I just hear excuses. Oh and I love the "Well my M6 makes more power at the dyno than your A8 comment too". Haha, okay dyno queen let me know how great that works out for you on the road when it's needed.

I tell all my friends who like Hellcats to drive both then choose. Even if you're a manual guy (like I was), drive both before you end up like me back at the dealer getting the car you really wanted!

 

[BULL]

Did someone say Sequential???

Oh, wait, that never really worked out...

 

[moparjim]

Some good news is that you can expect some fast ET’s because, based on Moparjim’s times, we know that the tracks in Canada are all shorter and downhill compared to the US tracks!

You must be talking with someone from Texas on fb. LMAO
First off if I come off as aggressive it is not my intention. As with the incident with an other individual, I think you are kidding.
Now that that is clear. My car is more than capable of running a more normal time in worse air. While maybe not as slow as the average. We have plenty of HC's that show up and run much slower due to inexperience.
The only thing this track is guilty of is giving us a good starting line. One thing people overlook is the actual temps some of my times are run in. Most tracks in the US won't even open if it's 30-40 degrees F. Let alone have 8-10 sec cars on a drag radial be able to hook.
Here is a screen shot of a pass at Sanair which is not prepped and the track runs slightly uphill. This was on stock front wheels and drag radials in rear. Also this track has no reason to be short as it is a mile long. As well as the screen from my car at the end of the season.
Thanks for letting me vent and sorry for the sidetrack.

 

[Hunter]

Reading is hard.

No, I am not joking. Park the fucking conjecture and anecdotal bullshit and prove it or it didn't happen.

The mechanical and technical advantages of the A8 or any automatic transmission aren't lost on me. All of my other toys are auto. What is also apparent to me is the distinct lack of talent in the driver's seats of A8 Hellcats. There are just so many videos of poorly piloted stock A8 HCs out there that it is painfully obvious the driver mod is fucking lacking hard around here. Which brings us all down. It is embarrassing.

So to sit here claiming A8 superiority without proof is complete and utter bullshit. Typical A8 drivers suck at driving in a performance scenario. The onus is now on them to prove me wrong.

Clear enough?

Think you can prove a point without cursing?

 

[moparjim]

They mean standard Hellcat as in normal body, not standard as in manual transmission. The broad discrepancies you are talking about have a lot to do with the fact that these tests are being done on factory tires. Plus we don't know DA, or driver skill. Racing these cars on factory tires alone is a big challenge. The reason the standard hellcat (standard body aka NB) runs an 11.2 vs the 10.9 of the widebody is simply tires.They have the same power, one just has wider factory tires that enable it to launch better as well as go faster around a road course.

You'll be hard pressed to find much info on M6 times mostly because Dodge likes to hand over their A8s for testing. Why? Because they know they are the quickest, and they want their product to look strong so it sells well.

The M6 stock doesn't punch out a 10.8. Fastest stock M6 I've ever heard of has ran an 11.1 on tire compared to the fastest A8 on tire which runs 10.3 (IIRC). Pretty sure @moparjim holds the record for the A8. So even if Jim is eating a sandwich at the light, he will still likely blow the doors off a M6 9 times out of 10. Hell keep lining them up over and over and watch as the M6 likely gets even slower because the M6 driver skips leg day, hahaha!

What does IIRC mean?
I do get what Motorhead is saying as well as the rest of the comments. But there are HC's that show up and run slow. My buddy in his 300 had to beat an 850hp HC and he is about a tenth or two slower than I am. I had to beat a car that ran 10.03 that day.
I won 1st place and my buddy came in second. On paper neither of us should have gone past the first round.
We also have a pullied RE the owner has no business owning. LOL
He can run a 9.9 one pass then a 10.6, 10.8 the next. So there is always a chance the slower car wins.
All this being said I do agree with you. And yes drive both. I for one am glad I changed my mind and went A8.

 

[motorhead]

Think you can prove a point without cursing?

Oh absolutely. But, there are just times when pointed language needs to be employed. Did it get anyone on my side of the debate that talent is more critical than transmission in a race? Probably not. Yet, it was attention garnered and the point driven home.

I even double-checked the forum rules and I didn't seem to be in violation of. Which even with subjective interpretation by the administrators/moderators would be hypocritical on the grounds of vulgarity given certain member(s) enjoy telling stories about finger-banging their cousins. So it must simply be because I come across as an asshole on this topic, and well I can live with that.

I am guessing it is the latter.
----

So we can all agree on a few factors:

1. That the engineered technical advantages of the A8 exist over the M6;

2. That there are just two talented guys with A8 HCs on stock power (although they have never (?) raced an M6 HC), and every other A8 owner is incapable of producing proof to the contrary (just a lot of opinions, so many self-convinced opinions) and are all talk; and

3. That in a race driver talent is the real measure of vehicle performance (not the brochure, not the isolated accomplishments of a few people on the internet) not the transmission type.

Good enough for me.

I am seeing myself out of this conversation.

 

[motorhead]

What does IIRC mean?

If I remember correctly.

Ooops... I said I am out. I am out now for realz.

 

[Hunter]

Oh absolutely. But, there are just times when pointed language needs to be employed. Did it get anyone on my side of the debate that talent is more critical than transmission in a race? Probably not. Yet, it was attention garnered and the point driven home.

I even double-checked the forum rules and I didn't seem to be in violation of. Which even with subjective interpretation by the administrators/moderators would be hypocritical on the grounds of vulgarity given certain member(s) enjoy telling stories about finger-banging their cousins. So it must simply be because I come across as an asshole on this topic, and well I can live with that.

I am guessing it is the latter.
----

So we can all agree on a few factors:

1. That the engineered technical advantages of the A8 exist over the M6;

2. That there are just two talented guys with A8 HCs on stock power (although they have never (?) raced an M6 HC), and every other A8 owner is incapable of producing proof to the contrary (just a lot of opinions, so many self-convinced opinions) and are all talk; and

3. That in a race driver talent is the real measure of vehicle performance (not the brochure, not the isolated accomplishments of a few people on the internet) not the transmission type.

Good enough for me.

I am seeing myself out of this conversation.

Was just curious.
LOL

 

[moparjim]

If I remember correctly.

Ooops... I said I am out. I am out now for realz.

Hey I was also sorta referring to the fact that a m6 driver will not lose to a A8 car automatically. The faster et wise car does not always win. I have beat the car running .4 faster than me 2 out of 3 and one of those losses was by .004.

 

[ACMAVRO]

Modern cars.
For old guys with nostalgia, I see the need for a manual.

I'm not old I'm 41 lol

 

[WhipCat]

Oh absolutely. But, there are just times when pointed language needs to be employed. Did it get anyone on my side of the debate that talent is more critical than transmission in a race? Probably not. Yet, it was attention garnered and the point driven home.

I even double-checked the forum rules and I didn't seem to be in violation of. Which even with subjective interpretation by the administrators/moderators would be hypocritical on the grounds of vulgarity given certain member(s) enjoy telling stories about finger-banging their cousins. So it must simply be because I come across as an asshole on this topic, and well I can live with that.

I am guessing it is the latter.
----

So we can all agree on a few factors:

1. That the engineered technical advantages of the A8 exist over the M6;

2. That there are just two talented guys with A8 HCs on stock power (although they have never (?) raced an M6 HC), and every other A8 owner is incapable of producing proof to the contrary (just a lot of opinions, so many self-convinced opinions) and are all talk; and

3. That in a race driver talent is the real measure of vehicle performance (not the brochure, not the isolated accomplishments of a few people on the internet) not the transmission type.

Good enough for me.

I am seeing myself out of this conversation.

starts thread, and then backs out of own thread cursing his way out. Lmao. Definitely a tool.

 

[SNeal5966]

Our A8 has manual mode to satisfy the guys who want a manual 😃

That's like using a segway to "run" a marathon.....

 

[WhipCat]

I'm not old I'm 41 lol

lol. Gotta watch out for offended elders on here

 

[SNeal5966]

OK so I prefer manual trans for the fun factor. My car is not a hellcat though, but a scat pack. I have an M6, wouldn't have it any other way. As much as I love the manual gear box, if I were to move up to a Hellcat or a Redeye (by default obviously for the Redeye)....I hate to admit it but I would have to go with the A8. This is part of the reason I passed on a low mileage used Hellcat that I found, that and the cost, and the gearing in the Hellcat. I got to drive it, and it was not much fun in traffic, was a chore. The scat pack is not geared like that though so its much more street friendly.

I am not racing the car though either...just pointing that out since that part of the debate does not apply to me......Although I may go to some track events once and a while for fun kind of like a test and tune day or one of the similar kind of days at Watkins Glen. Not to race anyone though just to go be able to drive it fast without risk of tickets and losing my license hahaha

 

[MaxCarnage]

What does IIRC mean?
I do get what Motorhead is saying as well as the rest of the comments. But there are HC's that show up and run slow. My buddy in his 300 had to beat an 850hp and he is about a tenth or two slower than I am. I had to beat a car that ran 10.03 that day.
I won 1st place and my buddy came in second. On paper neither of us should have gone past the first round.
We also have a pullied RE the owner has no business owning. LOL
He can run a 9.9 one pass then a 10.6, 10.8 the next. So there is always a chance the slower car wins.
All this being said I do agree with you. And yes drive both. I for one am glad I changed my mind and went A8.

IIRC means if I remember correctly. In other words I'm saying something that I think is correct but not 100% sure, lol. I couldn't remember your fastest time even though I'm your #1 fan, sorry I'll try harder to stay on top of things, hahaha! Yes I understand what Motorhead is trying to say, that anything is possible at a race track. However, your odds are much better in an A8. Especially with things like bracket racing. I ran within 2 hundredths of my time, from one run to the next with my A8. If I was off by a couple tenths in my M6 from run to run I was happy.The A8 is consistent as all hell. So much so, that it can make up for a crummy RT. Which it has a couple times for me. Won a race by .009 once because the car is badass, I was eating a sandwich trying to learn how to get a better RT. Some of the most pain in the butt cars are soccer moms that come out in their auto SUVs, and run consistent 17s lol. So yup you can race a M6, anything could happen. I proved that grabbing a 2nd place trophy against all autos in a bracket race. But I could have had a possible shot at 1st with my auto. The guy I lost to was a full time racer with a two speed powerglide and transbrake, very tough to win against someone who can not only cut a light very well because of his transbrake, but also because he has an easy auto consistent car. The victory feels just as good against someone like that with my A8, my M6 was just more frustrating lol.

 

[Speedy!]

This debate is so funny. It's the exact same one I had 9 years ago on another forum and I was the one defending the M6 LOL. I'm gonna go see if I can find a screen shot.

@motorhead mentions reaction time as a key factor, and it definitely is in a true race. In my old M6 car I struggled there too as I was trying to watch the tach and the lights at the same time so I only occasionally got it right balancing on the clutch pedal trying to keep the car from rolling forward but loading up the drive line enough so it didn't explode when I let the clutch out. In the A8 you just roll up there and go. Pretty simple and my RTs are usually .0xx compared to .15x+ in the old car. Occasionally I get a bad one in the A8 but it's so forgiving down track I usually still win LOL.

That doesn't mean I've never lost to an M6. Go to the 14:00 mark for the race where Chad beat me. He even got me on RT as well. He's an awesome M6 driver and his car was pretty heavily modified, mine as stock with a tune I think in this video.

 

[Speedy!]

Just for @motorhead LOL We'll get him back in this thread!

 

[Hellcatcfp]

I appreciate the passion from everyone. I learn a lot more on here than I contribute. I feel like someone made a claim first than asked the other side to prove them wrong. Be like me saying PUP 0W-40 provides superior wear protection vs Mobil 0w-40...prove me wrong. Ok, where is my proof first? Glad to be here and appreciate all the info that is shared. Great thread nonetheless.

 

[moparjim]

IIRC means if I remember correctly. In other words I'm saying something that I think is correct but not 100% sure, lol. I couldn't remember your fastest time even though I'm your #1 fan, sorry I'll try harder to stay on top of things, hahaha! Yes I understand what Motorhead is trying to say, that anything is possible at a race track. However, your odds are much better in an A8. Especially with things like bracket racing. I ran within 2 hundredths of my time, from one run to the next with my A8. If I was off by a couple tenths in my M6 from run to run I was happy.The A8 is consistent as all hell. So much so, that it can make up for a crummy RT. Which it has a couple times for me. Won a race by .009 once because the car is badass, I was eating a sandwich trying to learn how to get a better RT. Some of the most pain in the butt cars are soccer moms that come out in their auto SUVs, and run consistent 17s lol. So yup you can race a M6, anything could happen. I proved that grabbing a 2nd place trophy against all autos in a bracket race. But I could have had a possible shot at 1st with my auto. The guy I lost to was a full time racer with a two speed powerglide and transbrake, very tough to win against someone who can not only cut a light very well because of his transbrake, but also because he has an easy auto consistent car. The victory feels just as good against someone like that with my A8, my M6 was just more frustrating lol.

Thank you. Fyi, I may be your #1 fan.🍻
LOL. I must be slow today as I couldn't figure it out on my own.
I always get beat by the track champ. 😃
I cut a .05 rt and run .008 slower than dial in and had no chance against him.
The day Motorhead was with me I ran 10.42-10.43 all day. Where I was surprised is every pass was 6.70 in the 1/8 except for a 6.69 and one 6.71. So pretty consistent for sure.