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Stock Fuel Rails, why they don’t keep up

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16GoManGoHC2

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Thread Starter #801
I see elevated IATs…
I also see more fuel consumption with the HHP… that should mean more air and more power… hmm.
Too hard to tell in line for rides in Dollywood… ;)
Smart man, good eyes, Your onto something, so any number guesses of more power maybe made ?

The ride across the bridge to the party

7B6BB902-CE84-4187-869A-28B188FA2B03.png 656484D2-0FDF-4D87-8171-E2547C1E8A98.png

A run this morning. Take note to DA difference. The slope I’m surprised at as it was the opposite direction on same bridge, albeit I started a bit later across the bridge, had to let traffic get way ahead for a clear road.

AC299B5D-4DC5-4886-8780-9D7335758CB7.png 58307375-2EA8-488C-BAFB-DC1A71FAA9DB.png
 


Jack_Toepfer

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I can see that the TB didn’t make your 3-4 any faster… hahaha. Jk.
 


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Thread Starter #803
Ok, here’s the sheet, but there’s a problem discovered today to which I’m going to have to redo the test as I have doubt it’s apples to apples. The reason for doubt? A few. 1, I was down about 45 HP from last pulls on this same dyno. I attributed it to DA as the other guys there were concerned they were down on power as well, but SAE correction factors should have taken that into account right? 2, in reviewing past logs in cooler weather I was making 1-2 lbs more of boost, again, I attributed that deficiency to DA. 3, my 60-130 pull this morning, DA was about 1500-2000 more then pulls made mid May -200 to +500 compared to 1700 this morning but the number was close 5.80’s before 5.80 today, but logs still low on boost. 4, the clincher, after the 60-130 run this morning I decided to try a 1/4 run, I’ve been holding back because of being parts breakage shy but time to get back on the horse so being bridge was clear I stopped and set up for a 1/4 run. Launched in usual street fashion, off idle and roll on the gas as the clutch was coming out and it fell on its face, blah literally, went to second blah fell on its face upon application of throttle, third same thing, I immediately thought TB issue. Got off next exit did a throttle relearn and adaptive reset and try again, blah. So home to go back to the BBK, throttle relearn, out on the road hit the gas blah on its face, no CEL no nothing. I thought ok, blower coupling issues again :(. Well, it turns out it is a blower coupling issue of sorts but not at the couplings. Removed the blower belt and blower spins free and sounds fine, but clutch not working on the Litens. So remove TB and stuff a clean rag down it’s throat and lock up the rotors on it and grab the pulley and I can break it free from its shaft in the reverse direction but also can do such in the forward direction as well, ie the clutch is slipping, hence little to no boost. Soooo, I have to now wonder was I down on HP because I was down on boost because the pulley was slipping up top??? So was the pulley not slipping as much between the BBK 100 baseline pull and the 2 HHP 105 pulls??? Data was pretty consistent but I only did 1 BBK baseline pull, wish I would have given it another hit but I didn’t want to get allot of heat under the blower to heat it up when the engine was off swapping to the 105. So the data does appear to look like the bigger TB gained almost 20 HP and 10-13 ft lbs to TQ but for me to believe it I’m going to have to redo the test when a new pulley arrives, I gots ta know.
Now the decision is what pulley??? A Litens again? This would be Litens pulley #3, ie getting expensive as their not lasting since adding the +10 lower. Get a Satera heavy duty clutched pulley setup but their like 1200-1500 bucks last checked and no idea if their available off the shelf or not ie I can’t wait lol. Or 3, go to a grip tech 2.75 for 250$ and know no slip is going on
But a clutched pulley is much easier on the blower and all it’s drive gear, but more importantly a clutched pulley keeps boost up between shifts resulting in quicker times in everything from 1/4’s to roll racing. That was proven in development of the GT500 from things I’ve recently read on why they used a clutched pulley as well along with my own testing over the last 2+ years.
So here’s the dyno chart, and now the new question is- is the gain difference going to repeat with a new pulley???? Who says what this time??

193886E4-CF72-4FFE-8D5C-3EBDD53F6B28.jpeg

RED graph is the BBK100
BLUE and GREEN the HHP105

Clearly a gain in both HP and TQ from about 4700 RPM and up. Pretty consistent both HHP105 pulls done one after the other, blue and green plots laid right over the top of one another, no cool down, just spool down, review, and repeat.
 


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vortecd

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Not sure how a clutched pulley would keep boost up and a non clutched one wouldn't. Only thing would be if it slipped. The griptec isn't going to slip

I'm also not a huge dyno fan. I have seen cars pick up on a dyno with mods but not at the track. For me the testing would happen at the track same day

If you decide to go with a litens 2.72 I have one
 


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Not sure how a clutched pulley would keep boost up and a non clutched one wouldn't. Only thing would be if it slipped. The griptec isn't going to slip

I'm also not a huge dyno fan. I have seen cars pick up on a dyno with mods but not at the track. For me the testing would happen at the track same day

If you decide to go with a litens 2.72 I have one
When the engine rpm drops during a shift, the blower decouples and spins faster than what would be driven by belt due to momentum. This causes a momentary boost spike until everything syncs back up.
 


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Thread Starter #806
Not sure how a clutched pulley would keep boost up and a non clutched one wouldn't. Only thing would be if it slipped. The griptec isn't going to slip

I'm also not a huge dyno fan. I have seen cars pick up on a dyno with mods but not at the track. For me the testing would happen at the track same day

If you decide to go with a litens 2.72 I have one
Sent you a message on the pulley.

A Dyno is great for testing small gains, especially if the part testing happens same day with same strap down with as little changed as possible, snd that’s what this was, part testing. Small gains add up, but so do small losses. Yes, track proof of gain is the icing on the cake, hence why I did a 60-130 pull in similar DA looking for that kind of data. But a 20 hp gain would be hard to prove from track data because there’s so many other variables involved especially with a stick car in a 1/4 pull, consistency is tough with a stick but on 60-130 pulls there’s only 1 shift involved which lessens the variables that can effect data accuracy. That’s why I’ve been using 60-130 pulls of late for testing. Let me know on the pulley and THANKS!!
 


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20HP is probably right. It's a small gain and lines up with a 5mm change in TB size IMO.

If this is the third Litens that has failed, something is going on. I know you're super detailed, but have you made sure the pulley is properly spaced from the snout? The snouts are cast and can have some variance. I've heard of some of these pulleys dragging on the snout and it kills them. Outside of that, it sounds like the 10% lower may just be putting too much stress on the pulley. I'm a huge fan of the decoupler Litens pulleys for these IHI blowers due to the gear set setup we've talked about before, but your pushing some boundaries and need another solution assuming everything is setup correctly. You're not running an additional idler or anything right? That's said to kill these Litens pullleys as well.
 


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Thread Starter #808
20HP is probably right. It's a small gain and lines up with a 5mm change in TB size IMO.

If this is the third Litens that has failed, something is going on. I know you're super detailed, but have you made sure the pulley is properly spaced from the snout? The snouts are cast and can have some variance. I've heard of some of these pulleys dragging on the snout and it kills them. Outside of that, it sounds like the 10% lower may just be putting too much stress on the pulley. I'm a huge fan of the decoupler Litens pulleys for these IHI blowers due to the gear set setup we've talked about before, but your pushing some boundaries and need another solution assuming everything is setup correctly. You're not running an additional idler or anything right? That's said to kill these Litens pullleys as well.
Stock idlers every where, tensioner right in the middle, not using a green belt, it’s just allot of twist going through it now with that +10 lower. I took it all apart the other day and found that the front bearing in the snout is not tight in the snout, the outer ring can turn so today I ported a like new snout and I have another 2.72 pulley I acquired from @vortecd that should be here today so hopefully be back together tonight and will see what happens, assuming it’s not raining by the time I’m done.
One thing I also noticed looking over recent logs is when the pulley was locked up and the one way clutch not working when I would push the clutch in on the shift the motor rpm continues to climb. I’m shifting at 6600 RPM clutch in and the motor RPM continues to climb up past 7000 with the throttle closed, it didn’t do that before with any TB. I’ll post a video of the log screen when I get some time. My guess is it’s something to do with pulley not releasing and the blower coasting dragging the engine rpm’s up with it. We shall see.

Anyways, here’s the home hand ported snout ready for later. Look at the mouth on that thing!!!!

B1968A6A-532C-45D5-AC3C-2C09D9290620.jpeg 89517DA1-55C1-4C2A-B4ED-72C1BDB2BC19.jpeg F802D1FB-EF0C-4DDB-A1E0-08818D390DF5.jpeg E994991B-33E9-4838-B488-FE08A745A577.jpeg

It’s opened up for up to a 108mm TB and port matched to the Billet inlet plate. ALLOT of material came out of it, I should’ve weighed it before and after but it’s like a feather now compared to when I started.
 


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Thread Starter #809
I pinned the coupling too.


A7267795-86C8-4758-AEA4-CC9E88C2BB71.jpeg 3FA1A0C4-99E2-4827-85D9-AF626DBF7A95.jpeg
 


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I wondered if pinning the coupling would allow for pulley changes without removing the snout? Would still have to hold the rotors still somehow but wondering.
 


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Thread Starter #811
I wondered if pinning the coupling would allow for pulley changes without removing the snout? Would still have to hold the rotors still somehow but wondering.
Unfortunately no, still have to hold the shaft from Turning somehow to break the pulley loose from the shaft. Jokerz makes a quick change shaft that has a hex in the center on the front so you can hold it that way but getting them broken loose with that set up sometimes it’s impossible especially when you’re driving them hard like this. The torque spec might be 60 or so ft pounds to put it on the shaft but once the motor turns it it’s probably 150+ Ft pounds to break them loose!!!
 


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curious about boundary conditions with "textured" surface versus "polished" surface...


:unsure:
 


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Thread Starter #813
curious about boundary conditions with "textured" surface versus "polished" surface...


:unsure:
It’s not as smooth as it looks in pictures, not as smooth as CNC porting I’ve seen, that’s too rough if you ask my .02.
 


vortecd

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We should all send our snouts to @16GoManGoHC2 @jonx96 said he enjoys doing them:whistle:
 


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Thread Starter #815
Yea, Especially in this heat, this is what we have to work in today. I earned every bit of the Hellcat I drive
lol 7CB77048-AAEA-46C7-8E3E-7D4BFBE791BA.jpeg 42358069-1D1E-4EC7-8895-4A10817F63B2.jpeg A5CED3B0-8758-4BFE-8657-94C327511138.jpeg
 


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Thread Starter #816
So I got curious when I got home being I have a brand-new snout with a 272 pulley on it m, my other snout with a 272 pulley on it, and this snout with a 272 pulley on it so I put each one of them on a scale. And low and behold they all weigh about the same sort of. these vendors that are saying they take pounds off of each one maybe they do but look at the difference in how much material was taken out of each one and look at the weights and you judge for yourself. I have to call bullshit on their claims. 7D1B356B-DCE0-4934-948E-D7D8199E591B.jpeg EF4B7A3B-C213-4A6C-9ED4-37732899FD95.jpeg E5CC7324-5803-498F-BB94-D3CC96F8A78B.jpeg CD886229-1385-4244-B08E-710932821A83.jpeg
 


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data don't lie. Al is pretty low density, so the pile of removed chips & shards may look impressive, but it don't weigh much
 


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Chances are, most of the material on the inside that can be removed - has been. The majority of the weight is the shaft, pulley, exterior webbing, and the thick flanges. Losing a pound or more wouldn’t necessarily be beneficial to airflow because it’d probably be removed from the outside of the snout.
 


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Thread Starter #819
We’ll re-assembly finally begins :)
All the parts have been here since Wednesday but Work has left me to beat the last two nights To even work on my favorite task. Hopefully put a run in later tonight when it cools off. This is what a port match snout to a billet plate Inlet plate looks like from the inside. The area around the driveshaft housing was greatly opened up allowing that wrote her to pull in much more air it’s hard to see on the left side.

F0E044BE-9273-4BA3-8206-D8ED49EEB96D.jpeg 98FB7D3A-BC09-4803-84CD-2AF9FF9E0627.jpeg 9DCC3C33-2CBB-4F26-8256-2EAF65AD467D.jpeg 9AA64665-44C2-4501-BBB1-E48AB90A6DF5.jpeg AD3C564D-AFCD-4855-9496-055E00B37FF5.jpeg
 


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I don’t know if you realize how lucky we are to have someone like you in the community.
Thanks for everything.
 




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